tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7821345570811107481.post6195447820347810459..comments2024-03-17T00:13:44.599-07:00Comments on Marty Nemko: Behavioral Genetics: The Most Important Topic You Don't DiscussMarty Nemkohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14850388752934193821noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7821345570811107481.post-18879367736745805312011-02-08T11:42:02.305-08:002011-02-08T11:42:02.305-08:00I'm a eugenicist, so this post interests me gr...I'm a eugenicist, so this post interests me greatly. Marty, check out "Project Prevention" if you have the chance, it's a US/UK charity that pays drug addicts to get sterilized. You can imagine the flack they get, though not from the public.<br /><br />I believe that the best solution, to many social pathologies, is to pay the un-gifted to be sterilized, and to pay (or somehow aid) the average for having two children or less. Nothing else that I can think of would be as advantageous for society, the environment or human accomplishment.Eugenicisthttp://eugenicist.tumblr.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7821345570811107481.post-12768496939716835352011-02-07T18:03:27.878-08:002011-02-07T18:03:27.878-08:00Marty, I'm very sorry to observe that you'...Marty, I'm very sorry to observe that you've just proven my point.Seraphimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03303412584693617377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7821345570811107481.post-35105464185180802332011-02-07T15:20:02.438-08:002011-02-07T15:20:02.438-08:00Seraphim, have we descended into such a value-void...Seraphim, have we descended into such a value-void society that. for example, a baby with genes for superior intelligence, empathy, and impulse control could not be said to be better than a mentally retarded baby with low levels of empathy and impulse control?Marty Nemkohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14850388752934193821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7821345570811107481.post-43903507556520576472011-02-07T12:35:00.841-08:002011-02-07T12:35:00.841-08:00... which would (by definition) result in the crea...... which would (by definition) result in the creation of designer babies. Your whole argument is that this would result in "better genetics", i.e., "better" babies. Which inherently devalues the non-designer babies.<br /><br />And then the rest of my argument still applies.Seraphimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03303412584693617377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7821345570811107481.post-7598206441667640762011-02-07T01:04:46.912-08:002011-02-07T01:04:46.912-08:00Seraphim, I'm not suggesting we choose babies....Seraphim, I'm not suggesting we choose babies. I'm suggesting that research be conducted that would enable parents to have their eggs and sperm checked and if needed, repaired to ensure good genes for intelligence, empathy, impulse control, etc.Marty Nemkohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14850388752934193821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7821345570811107481.post-41871614213884919322011-02-06T13:56:12.229-08:002011-02-06T13:56:12.229-08:00Choosing which babies to keep based on genetics in...Choosing which babies to keep based on genetics inherently devalues the baby not chosen. <br /><br />After a generation of this, giving birth to a Downs child or a child with a disability is seen as socially irresponsible.<br /><br />Not all these cases can be determined during pregnancy -- so the next logical step is waiting till birth and applying infanticide when appropriate.<br /><br />This is not hypothetical. It's already happening in Belgium, Holland, and other places, and it's being advocated by top bioethicists, such as Peter Singer, the Ira W. DeCamp Professor of Bioethics at Princeton University.<br /><br />And it's another very small step from infanticide to involuntary euthanasia of the undesirable. Which, again, is already happening.<br /><br />Be careful what you wish for -- you might get it.Seraphimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03303412584693617377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7821345570811107481.post-55070445901932810502011-02-06T06:08:19.492-08:002011-02-06T06:08:19.492-08:00This is a brave and thoughtful statement by Nemko....This is a brave and thoughtful statement by Nemko.<br /><br />To Justin Wehr and others who may wish to become more informed about the behavioral genetics (hereditarian) perspective, if you have access to an academic library I suggest you read papers and books by the following experts:<br /><br />On the importance of genetics in determining mental traits:<br />Tom Bouchard, William Iaconno, Matt McGue, Wendy Johnson (Minnesota)<br />Nancy Segal (U C Santa Barbara)<br />John DeFries (Colorado)<br />David Rowe (Arizona, deceased)<br />Steven Pinker (Harvard)<br />Ian Deary (Edinburgh)<br />Robert Plomin (London)<br />Dorret Boomsma (Amsterdam)<br />Nicholas Martin (Queensland Australia)<br />Roberto Colom (Spain)<br /><br />On the theory that genetic differences are probably the major factor in ethnoracial group differences in mental traits:<br />Arthur Jensen (Berkeley, emeritus)<br />Hans Eysenck (London, deceased)<br />Richard Lynn (U.K.)<br />Linda Gottfredson (Delaware)<br />Henry Harpending (Utah)<br />Heiner Rindermann (Germany)<br />Bruce Lahn (Chicago)Galtonianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11542550046419854091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7821345570811107481.post-50393060476079409642011-02-05T18:17:55.064-08:002011-02-05T18:17:55.064-08:00If I recall correct, Tizard did studies in the 197...If I recall correct, Tizard did studies in the 1970s and 1980s on institutionalized versus adopted kids. Far less germane than Scarr and Weinberg, which has stood the test of time as the most solid, and indeed, has the been the subject of repeated reanalyses, including by the authors, whose views changed FROM believing environment was key.<br /><br />The Heber study is even older, somewhere in teh 1960s and refers to a very expensive innovative program called the Milwaukee Project. Indeed, that is often cited as evidence for the LACK of effect of environment: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V6G-45WYVDD-39&_user=10&_coverDate=10%2F01%2F1990&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1631478008&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=8b02f752f0910cef61df5dad518cddc5&searchtype=aMarty Nemkohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14850388752934193821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7821345570811107481.post-8586626191675110902011-02-05T17:58:01.933-08:002011-02-05T17:58:01.933-08:00Marty, you say you're familiar with the transr...Marty, you say you're familiar with the transracial adoption studies but you only mentioned the one conducted by Scarr and Wienberg. Have you looked at the studies by Tizard and Cooperman? Or the Heber study? <br /><br />My stance on race/iq isn't based on one study but on a number of studies that, more or less, produced the same results. None of the comments here contained any data refuting these studies.<br /><br />I'm no expert on genetics or cognition, so my degree of "dispositiveness" is based soley on the information made available to the public. For all I know, some of the cutting edge research currently underway may counter my conclusions. I'm open to all ideas. But I'm not quick to speculate about what "might" be true...<br /><br />It's clear that you've made up your mind about intelligence and race. So I'll refrain from making any more post on this topic.Marlonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7821345570811107481.post-7849114017153324372011-02-05T17:35:48.917-08:002011-02-05T17:35:48.917-08:00Oh and Sebastian, I might add that every time I da...Oh and Sebastian, I might add that every time I dare be politically incorrect, I suffer HUGE reprisals. I did a radio show opining that illegal immigration is a net negative. Immediately after, a computer programmer named Anarchogeek admited to google-bombing me so that whenever you google me, "Marty Nemko is a Racist" comes up. That metastasized when none other than Biz Stone, co-founder of Twitter read it and decided, without having even listened to the show, to add a link to Anarchogeek's libel of me on his extremely well-visited blog. <br /><br />Today's Berlin Wall is one between left and right. You dare not cross it or you risk getting shot. You can quote me on that.Marty Nemkohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14850388752934193821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7821345570811107481.post-5985991325666802082011-02-05T17:28:58.912-08:002011-02-05T17:28:58.912-08:00Sebastian, your core point is well-taken. In my de...Sebastian, your core point is well-taken. In my defense, I have spent my adult life in a most liberal environment: the City University of New York, U.C. Berkeley, and since then, remained in the San Francisco Bay Area, America's most liberal bastion. <br /><br />And of course, in recent decades, the media has gone from neutral reporter to leftist advocate: whether it's TV news or the New York Times, sitcoms, comedy shows (e.g., The Daily Show), TV dramas (The West Wing) plays,or feature films, whether it's fiction or nonfiction books, websites such as the Huff Post, Slate or Salon, or blogs such as the Daily Kos,<br /><br />It's very hard to develop let alone live beliefs that are counter to such a powerful zeitgeist. Perhaps I've not been sufficiently brave or confident to live a life that the thought leaders of this era would agree is wrong-headed.Marty Nemkohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14850388752934193821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7821345570811107481.post-12891031199171765012011-02-05T16:55:01.479-08:002011-02-05T16:55:01.479-08:00Given how much you invested in helping the helples...Given how much you invested in helping the helpless, one wonders how intelligent you really are! I'm being only half facetious. Here's why: you have a high IQ and I have known too many high IQ people who have squandered possible careers in music, literature or academia to follow their ideological commitment to "diversity," or general equality. I also know IQ's are a terrible measure of intelligence. Men like Beethoven, Shostakovitch or Rembrandt would not have known what to do with one of those silly tests. Neither would an old world philosopher with the wisdom (which is different than intelligence) to know a priori that a huge segment of any population is hopeless and cannot be changed - and that we have no right, or certainly no imperative, to attempt to change them.<br /><br />It seems you had to unlearn your naive liberalism. Perhaps had you not jettisoned ancient wisdom in favor of new fangled idealism, you would have known all along what is now considered "scientific" discoveries, namely, people are different, hierarchical, and Third World people live in Third World countries because they have Third World consciousnesses. I am only 36, but because of my upbringing as a European who lived in Latin America, I never had these delusions of you "high IQ" liberals.<br /><br />BTW, if two babies from the same mother are so different, then genetics and heredity, though real, are more difficult to predict than a simple intelligent parents have intelligent kids, no?<br /><br />Lastly, I very much enjoy the blog. I only contribute to have a go at you, but I agree with the lion's share of your ideas.<br /><br />SebastianSebastianhttp://www.youtube.com/user/MarcusCMarcellus?feature=mhumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7821345570811107481.post-33858322381833755322011-02-05T08:34:02.467-08:002011-02-05T08:34:02.467-08:00I am very familiar with the transracial adoption s...I am very familiar with the transracial adoption studies, notably the famous Scarr and Weinberg study, and the results do not provide the degree of dispositiveness you feel about the importance of environment vs geneticis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Transracial_Adoption_Study. <br /><br />Look at that study and the resulting analyses of it. Then assign a weight to its dispositive power. Compare that against the weight of all the other data points mentioned in the posts and comments. <br />Respectfully submitted,<br /> "The Naive One."Marty Nemkohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14850388752934193821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7821345570811107481.post-7352674916801630302011-02-05T06:49:56.701-08:002011-02-05T06:49:56.701-08:00Andy wrote: "Re: genetic engineering, I don&#...Andy wrote: "Re: genetic engineering, I don't think it's worth it, on traits like intelligence. Genome wide association studies are going to have a very tough time finding individual genes that explain a large percentage of phenotypic variance in intelligence. "<br /><br />Check out the project Steve Hsu is working on in China: <br /><br />http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2010/12/supercomputers-and-mystery-of-iq.html<br /><br />China isn't afraid.Shawnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7821345570811107481.post-9003949847521361502011-02-05T06:47:37.246-08:002011-02-05T06:47:37.246-08:00Marty wrote: "And more recently, the liberal ...Marty wrote: "And more recently, the liberal John Rawls urges us to use "redistributive justice" to compensate the losers in what he called, "the genetic lottery."<br /><br />Although some people REALLY DO choose to be poor, because the Left allows the Right to ignore the role of genes, how many Republicans disingenuously say that MOST poor people's impoverished state is their 'fault?'Shawnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7821345570811107481.post-68743029808562206762011-02-05T06:38:18.927-08:002011-02-05T06:38:18.927-08:00Americans have eugenics right now (down syndrome b...Americans have eugenics right now (down syndrome babies are usually aborted, for example) but it is not enough to combat the overall dysgenics which has been occurring. <br /><br />I wonder what will happen if the USA does not take common sense steps? China is not faced with the PC mess that American face, so they are taking steps to look into these sorts of things.Shawnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7821345570811107481.post-29922669452429821142011-02-05T06:34:04.755-08:002011-02-05T06:34:04.755-08:00Thanks. Very good post & I agree with it in it...Thanks. Very good post & I agree with it in it's entirety. <br /><br />It was important to mention the holocaust so that we may get a better understanding of your parents background, and how it affected you. I will point out intellectual climate is over-saturated with discussion about it, though.Shawnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7821345570811107481.post-21300413829708216472011-02-05T04:05:16.154-08:002011-02-05T04:05:16.154-08:00Few people argue that academic success and intelli...Few people argue that academic success and intelligence have no genetic basis. And those who do, from what I gather, secretly accept this fact. The real question then is to what extent do we owe our success or lackthereof to our genes? I'm not yet convinced that such a question is off limits in academia. Even before human genetic material was discovered psychologists were conducting IQ studies and attempting to explain why it varies with respect to race and socio-economic class.<br /><br />I think Marty is a bit naive in assuming that environment plays a lesser role in shaping intelligence. It has been demonstrated, for example, that black children adopted by white families have the same IQ scores as white children--until around the age of 12, and then their IQ's tend to fall. Is there an environmental explanation for this or do their genes just magically change? hmmm...<br /><br />It's a bit premature to throw your hands up and declare the current state of education, and indeed society in general, to be an everlasting, irreversible condition. If we're to believe that every possible endeavor to eliminate disparities in school performance and standardized testing has already been carried out, then we have to blindly accept the falsehoods that everyone is now given the same opportunities and that everyone is equally liked and integrated into the mainstream; That every single social difference imaginable has already been studied thoroughly and ruled out as a factor. <br /><br />Genetic engineering is not a quick fix to the problem, for reasons 'Andy McKenzie' pointed out. Genes that effect one's musical or mathematical prowess most likely have a number of other vital functions. So while it may be appealing...if mishandled, it runs the risk of actually producing a more fucked up progeny than what nature would have. Hell, the biologists don't even know the full consequences of genetically altering plants.<br /><br />If you're worried about what to do with societies less desirables, perhaps a program that teaches parents how to interact with their infants in ways that stimulate proper brain development would be the way to go. I could accept the genetic argument if I hadn't seen studies of black children placed in white families. It's fair to say that genes are responsible for behavioral differences when comparing family members, or to a lesser extent, people of the same race...but its virtually impossible to measure such a thing between races. Google "genetic vs heritable".Marlonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7821345570811107481.post-23003499899572385872011-02-05T01:05:59.916-08:002011-02-05T01:05:59.916-08:00g is far from mythical, except in a few eyes, nota...g is far from mythical, except in a few eyes, notably anthropologist (not individual psychologist or statistician) Stephen Jay Gould, and Howard Gardner. Here's the link to the Wikipedia entry for "g." Wikipedia profiles, like most populist-created media, tends to be biased against such variables as g, yet in great detail, well-cited, the Wikipedia entry for g makes clear that the large majority expert consensus is that g is not only mythical but important. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G_factor_%28psychometrics%29Marty Nemkohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14850388752934193821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7821345570811107481.post-33747549970247550932011-02-05T00:49:23.628-08:002011-02-05T00:49:23.628-08:00Anonymous, that was an error. It turns out it was ...Anonymous, that was an error. It turns out it was Charles Galton Darwin, Director of the National Physics Laboratory, not Charles Darwin. But it doesn't seem central to focus on whether it's Charles Darwin or Charles Galton Darwin who is included in a list within a comment when the central post made so many stronger arguments.Marty Nemkohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14850388752934193821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7821345570811107481.post-11230659889302499522011-02-04T22:27:29.138-08:002011-02-04T22:27:29.138-08:00Yes, Anna, I look back on my life's hard work-...Yes, Anna, I look back on my life's hard work--70+ hours a week, minimal vacations, and indeed am disappointed in my impact. But I do not believe that's the genesis of my belief that giving people a choice about their children's genetics is wise. Nor do I believe it would yield "hell on earth." There's a much, much higher probability it would take us closer to heaven on earth.Marty Nemkohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14850388752934193821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7821345570811107481.post-73045938239349355582011-02-04T22:23:10.253-08:002011-02-04T22:23:10.253-08:00My look at the epigenetics literature suggests it&...My look at the epigenetics literature suggests it's more wishful thinking than explained variance.Marty Nemkohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14850388752934193821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7821345570811107481.post-8675004045628579312011-02-04T21:36:22.784-08:002011-02-04T21:36:22.784-08:00Looks like IQ could be even more heritable than he...Looks like IQ could be even more heritable than height:<br /><br />"Estimates...of the heritability of IQ have varied from below 0.5 to a high of 0.9. A 1996 statement by the American Psychological Association gave about .45 for children and about .75 during and after adolescence. A 2004 meta-analysis of reports in Current Directions in Psychological Science gave an overall estimate of around .85 for 18-year-olds and older. The New York Times Magazine has listed about three quarters as a figure held by the majority of studies." -<br /><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ" rel="nofollow">Wikipedia</a><br /><br />"Human height is 60%–80% heritable, according to several twin studies[70] and has been considered polygenic since the Mendelian-biometrician debate a hundred years ago"<br /><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height#Determinants_of_growth_and_height" rel="nofollow">Wikipedia</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7821345570811107481.post-3849301498343529532011-02-04T21:18:34.004-08:002011-02-04T21:18:34.004-08:00I was curious about whether Darwin had endorsed eu...I was curious about whether Darwin had endorsed eugenics, and it seems that he did not after looking a bit with Google. <br /><br />(The term did not exist during his lifetime, being coined by Galton after his death, but the ideas were gelling, especially after Malthus.) <br /><br />There is an extended argument in the Descent of Man outlining many then-current proto-eugenic ideas but to my eye, though he quotes them, he does this to point out problems with them. A few paragraphs from this kind of honest, careful essay can easily be selected to make it appear that Darwin agrees but in context, that seems like applying "gotcha" journalism to a completely different type of discourse than the 30 second bites we see today. <br /><br />Some glaring problems with early eugenic ideas are well captured here: <br /><br />"The careless, squalid, unaspiring Irishman multiplies like rabbits: the frugal, foreseeing, self-respecting, ambitious Scot, stern in his morality, spiritual in his faith, sagacious and disciplined in his intelligence, passes his best years in struggle and in celibacy, marries late, and leaves few behind him. Given a land originally peopled by a thousand Saxons and a thousand Celts---and in a dozen generations five-sixths of the population would be Celts, but five-sixths of the property, of the power, of the intellect, would belong to the one-sizth of Saxons that remained." (This is an author named Greg, quoted by Darwin for the purpose of arguing against him.) <br /><br />One problem with that argument at its time is that Scots and Irishmen had by then been living in close proximity for many generations, separated only by water, and yet the Scots had not been overrun by the Irish having outbred their island. <br /><br />The problem in a modern context is the sheer quaintness of this "any fool can see" style of argument when applied to argue in favor of the essential superiority of the Scots over the Irish. At this remove from the potato famine, the argument certainly looks like one advanced foolishly, if not by a fool.<br /><br />The chapter entitled Civilization in Descent of Man is now on my reading list for the weekend.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7821345570811107481.post-89841742174458806082011-02-04T20:50:08.910-08:002011-02-04T20:50:08.910-08:00Marty,
I get the impression, and please correct m...Marty,<br /><br />I get the impression, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that you have difficultly looking back at your life's work with pride and a sense of having achieved something. <br /><br />I believe you have given of yourself to others and helped them, even if just by encouraging them. Maybe you have a 96% client satisfaction rate because you were talented at giving clients a sense of hope. <br /><br />Neither you nor I are the messiah, it isn't our job to change people or to better them. That isn't anyone's job. If you are superior in any sense to someone, you may condescend to aid them, but that's it. You can't change people. And I don't think this world would be a better place if we used the practices that you are obliquely referring to to make a superior race of people. A human being has inherent worth, no matter his or her genetic mix. All human lives are tragedies. We live, we make mistakes and then we die and are eaten by worms. That doesn't mean we should unleash hell on earth in pursuit of perfection.Annahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03610038094754958630noreply@blogger.com